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Post by giftmacher on Apr 15, 2015 7:56:30 GMT -5
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spirit
Quake 2 Mapping Club
maps.rcmd.org
Posts: 509
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Post by spirit on Apr 15, 2015 8:23:26 GMT -5
Could very well be the case. Recently I read ppl discuss this and claim it was 1,500 but I can assure you that it is way more (most of my maps have about 2,300 brushes).
The engine guys (jdolan, knightmare) should know exact numbers.
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Post by cocerello on Apr 15, 2015 11:57:32 GMT -5
If you want a reference, the improved version of the map i sent to the contest, has right now more than 24000 faces before compiling and 4300 brushes. If i add 500 more brushes qbsp freezes on place, but maybe i have hit another limit.
Interesting to know there is a limit for brushes, i thought that the limits were in the output, not in the input, but forgot to think about the limits on compilers. I am still not accustomed to hit the limits on compilers, and Quake 2 is teaching me a lot in that regard.
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Post by giftmacher on Apr 15, 2015 13:53:54 GMT -5
Ok that is so strange because I get "Too many surfaces" error when passing 1800 brushes :/
Edit: After removing a very detailed pillar that was placed in the center-arena of the map, it worked! I guess the amount of brushes is one thing but also how many that are visible at any given time..
Edit #2: After adding more brushes, past 1800 in a sealed area, not visible from more than 1 or two entry points, I hit the "too many faces error" again, I'm doing something wrong but I'm not sure what! This time I used no diggers/func_walls or anything, just pure brushwork. Making the added brushes "detail" does not have any affect on the error. So it is very surprising to see you guys adding 2000-4000+ brushes on a map!
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spirit
Quake 2 Mapping Club
maps.rcmd.org
Posts: 509
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Post by spirit on Apr 21, 2015 3:53:54 GMT -5
Notice that the error mentions faces, not brushes. If you use the clipper to do crazy stuff, a single brush may have quite a lot of faces (think of something like a large sphere).
But unless your map is extemely huge or detailed, this (hitting the limits) should not happen. Maybe you have some funky, invisible brush in your map file or something. Some Radiant versions have something like "brush cleanup" in the tools menu. Maybe make a backup of the map and give it a try. You could also have a look at the map file in a text editor, and look for brushes with a lot of vertices. Again, make a backup of the map before trying.
Did I mention you should make a backup?
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Post by giftmacher on Apr 26, 2015 15:24:36 GMT -5
Yea I can understand the problem with my contest map, lots of diggers/awkward brush work, real mess. However, this map I'm actually being quite careful with everything, going very slow but past 1800 I get too many faces! I don't use anything else than pure brush work, real squarish too.. nothing fancy. Something with my mapping method is off
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spirit
Quake 2 Mapping Club
maps.rcmd.org
Posts: 509
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Post by spirit on Apr 27, 2015 4:09:40 GMT -5
Hm, must be really off, and I doubt that seeing your maps. Strange. (My maps all include the source map files in the ZIP you can download from my website, you can have a look at them and compare it with your mapping method if you want. See spirit2dm7 for an example. It has 2347 brushes according to Radiant's MapInfo option, 2116 of which are non-entitiy brushes -- and it works fine).
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Post by giftmacher on May 1, 2015 6:41:13 GMT -5
Yes I'm looking at your .map files now, practicing your/that method - full boxed out layout first, solid brushes. Then add detail brushes inside the solid layout. Lots of failing, but now I finally managed to map out my pen&paper layout in the editor.. THEN comes the fun part of detailing.. very demanding on my childish patience. Edit: Wild and unreasonable thought but could the limit of 1750 brushes have something to do with the QuarK editor/compile tools? Tried various methods/approaches, around 1750 I hit the limit.
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jaydolan
Quake 2 Mapping Club
Posts: 161
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Post by jaydolan on May 14, 2015 8:16:17 GMT -5
A couple things.. The limit is indeed 8192 brushes, and 64K surfaces. Those values are actually well beyond the means of the standard Quake2 renderer, in terms of reasonable in-game performance requirements, so the format itself shouldn't limit you. In other words, if you build a map that approaches those limits, it will likely run like crap (especially in multiplayer). So the hard-coded limits are fair and shouldn't be holding you back from making maps correctly. The fact that you're hitting the limits suggests that your brush work might be suboptimal (overlapping a lot maybe?). First, try compiling with `-chop 1024`. That should reduce the number of faces, especially if you have HUGE walls, ceilings, floors, etc. in your map. Just for reference, here is a map that TRaK made basically to "break" my engine. It has 7300 brushes, and comfortably holds 16 players (it's huge). The r_speeds hover around 12,000 in many places; Quake2 would shit the bed on this map So you see what I mean: you'd be hard pressed to fit 8192 brushes into +/-4096 and have it play very well in stock Quake2 anyway. Here's the .map source if you're curious. You should be able to load this up in Radiant and check out how TRaK bends brushes. He's very, very good at it. raw.githubusercontent.com/jdolan/quetoo-data/master/src/default/maps/wake.map
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Post by giftmacher on May 15, 2015 17:37:52 GMT -5
Yea it must be suboptimal, I suppose it's overlaping then, tried with -chop 1024, still hiting too many surfaces around 1760+ brush, it's really bugging me because it prevents me from finishing some of my maps. I can't imagine I'm close to hiting the limits, I've seen some insane maps out there that run just fine, that SP map SPoG1 (or something) for example, It's HUGE and looks great..
7000 brushes.. wow! I will have a look at it.
I must find this ugly habit, 1768 brushes in giftdm8 and adding just 1 or 2 square brushes will cause the error.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 4:43:12 GMT -5
= About Max Brushes Q2 error =
- update- I have this problem a long time!, You can delay the error with a couple 100 brushes use flag detail & func_wall, and with smart mapping, use walls twice in corridors.. but finally the error max brushes is coming for me when I approached bsp map size 4.5mb!.. - update-
We just need Q2 facts & evidence Giftmacher!.
Here: ===================================
giftdm8.map ( Design In Quark ) bsp size 2.103.132 1768 brushes Max Brushes Q2 error 12305 brush sides
margaal21.map ( Design In Quark ) bsp size 4.459.372 1746 brushes Max Brushes Q2 error 13657 brush sides
margaal14.map ( Design In Quark ) bsp size 4.595.804 2057 brushes Max Brushes Q2 error 13715 brush sides
spirit2dm7.map ( design in netradiant ) bsp size 1.937.328 2132 brushes 18845 brush sides
margaal28final.map ( Design In Quark ) bsp size 4.338.972 2153 brushes Max Brushes Q2 error 15834 brush sides
===================================
= Extreem Max Brushes = these are the only three Q2 maps that amaze me how they did it.
Maric largest map marics76 "And What Rough Beast" Maric had a horrible time getting all errors repaired..
=================== marics76.map ( design in Thread ) bsp size 3.681.416 3430 brushes Max Brushes Q2 error 25723 brush sides ===================
Jester Jsos.map( design in Qeradiant ) =================== bsp size 2.974.868 3423 brushes No info , no txt file 28117 brush sides ===================
= and then this map SPoGSP1, just double in brushes and map size , how is this possible?? =
=================== SPoGSP1.map ( design in QERadiant ) bsp size 5.544.924 6240 brushes 63301 brush sides ===================
I have this problem Max Brushes Q2 error a long time, happened in all my large projects . Sooo yeah I suspect it is Quark editor giving us this limit,the way Quark editor transforms the map source info.
When I reached bsp map size 4.5mb, the bsp compile tool starts doing weird, in a complex area, where the map is weakest, some wals jumping one grid distance, get leak holes in my map...
when this happens i de-compile the bsp map file ( read log file ) brush sides & brushes, to prevent this,I just need to delete a few (20) brushes.
Hmmmmm Each map editor write info a certain way in map file at the beginning. ( found this out during Quark--->Thread ....Maric & Margaal project....grid distances emerged on 0.00300.
===========================
You can try a trick Giftmacher for testing if it is the Quark editor what give problems, de-compile SPoGSP1 bsp map file.
Try this:
copy your Entities & Map structure from your ( max brush limit error map ) and past it in the SPoGSP1 map file. Nevermind....try it myself.....get error again.
===========================
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Post by giftmacher on May 16, 2015 5:56:18 GMT -5
Ok so I'm not alone! First I was convinced it was my method, but after trying different approaches and all maps crash at the same limit it didn't make sense. My contest map giftdm6 was a big mess, lots of diggers and suboptimal brush work, but giftdm8 is actually pretty carefully constructed (not perfect but still much better than giftdm6..). Both maps crash around 1750+ brushes, making me think it is as Margaal says -> QuarK who compiles the map in a weird way. Ok I can try that Margaal, I was also thinking about this -> openeing my .map in GtkRadiant and compiling the map there? Is that possible? You tech guys should let us know if we are completely off the rails here or if there could be something in this Edit: Ok didn't work to load the .map file in Gtkradiant, I see no brushes and the map produces a leak when I try to compile it. Edit #2: Found a faster way of checking that it is QuarK causing the problem Margaal, I tried to compile SPoGSP1 in QuarK and it caused the "Too many surfaces error" right away.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 6:05:33 GMT -5
Nope..... . Ok I can try that Margaal, I was also thinking about this -> openeing my .map in GtkRadiant and compiling the map there? Is that possible? You tech guys should let us know if we are completely off the rails here or if there could be something in this open Quark map in GtkRadiant guess can try, if it makes sense?!, because the maps itself is created from the start by Quark editor..Edit #2: Found a faster way of checking that it is QuarK causing the problem Margaal, I tried to compile SPoGSP1 in QuarK and it caused the "Too many surfaces error" right away. Quark limits Now the question is what now Giftmacher?.. Learn a new mapping editor?...because i asked myself this question years ago... have to throw away 10 years of Quark experience.. And for what? for those extra xxx brushes or for those 2 years extra I`m still active in mapping...noooo I'll just stay on Quark and make smaller projects with smart mapping Hmmmm maybe you Giftmacher can try send people a message Quark editor forum....( about this Quark limit error ).. my Englische sucks...
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Post by giftmacher on May 16, 2015 6:47:26 GMT -5
I was hoping there was a way to import the brush work from QuarK to Gtkradiant to continue mapping there, but yes unless there is a solution I think picking up Radiant is the right way, it's a big undertaking and will take a long time.. In the end though you will be able to do more things that you can't do in QuarK and make larger/more detailed maps. I will start to tinker with radiant to learn how to use it. There is also Trenchbroom, but I know nothing of its capabilities or limits, can it do everything Radiant can? I can try and post on the Quark forum but as far as I know they are not doing any more work on it? Edit: Waiting for my forum registration to go through on Quark forum, anyway I found this: --- About Quark and GtkRadiant --- -=[Question]=- Hi all, Does anyone know of a way to move .map files back and forth between Quark and GTKRadiant? Quark seems to open Radiant's .map files with little or no troubles, but Radiant suffers a hard crash when trying to open Quark's .maps. Can anyone think of a way to do this? By the way, I'm working with Quake 3 maps, so WinBSP doesn't work for making conversions (I already tried). Thanks in advance. -=[Answer]=- Under the map options, choose saving to brush primitives format, & things ought to work. GtkRadiant doesn't like some of the comment codes that QuArK writes into map files,there are options to turn various of them off, but using bp format is probably best. There is some fairly tricksy & recent coding (latest 6.3 snapshot) to address problems caused by the fact that QuArK writes floating point coordinates which GtkRadiant doesn't read. Empirically it seemed to work, but the issues are more complicated & more testing would be good, eg. maps sealed with brushes meeting at crazy angles, etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Weird though that I did not find this option in Quark under Conf -> Map -> Options.. Maybe it's for Q3 only or something? It would be a solution to move .map file from Quark to GtkRadiant so you can do some finishing touches only.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2015 6:51:58 GMT -5
I can try and post on the Quark forum but as far as I know they are not doing any more work on it? Yeah please try...you never know..
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