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Post by grieve[Q2C] on Aug 20, 2005 11:18:26 GMT -5
Just some screens of the Quake 3 map I am working on right now. This is supposed to be the first of a couple of arena type maps I want to do. The working progress is painfully slow, since I always test stuff (like fake shaders) and have to wait for a full light compile to look at the results Hope it will speed up when I manage to finish this one. ;D Oh, wait a second .... it's Quake 2, not Quake 3, lol. Silly me.
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Post by Wixen1 [Q2C] on Aug 20, 2005 12:13:48 GMT -5
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Post by Yun on Aug 20, 2005 12:34:48 GMT -5
Seems a bit barren.
I suppose it's a good thing to finally see the professional critic put a little bit out there. As soon as you release this map, you can be considered a mapper.
Congratulations, Grieve.
- Yun.
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Post by grieve[Q2C] on Aug 20, 2005 13:10:07 GMT -5
Well, thanks. Barren you say ? Hope not. Right now it's only the main arena and one transition area with a donut. Being the r_speeds apostle I am, I can't simply throw stuff into it and slap brushes together. I'm currently trying to find a way to reduce r_speeds inside the main arena with hintbrushes. There are some points which reach 1000+, and of course some more requisites are required, like jump pads. In exchange I throw more details into the transition area with the donut doorway, since most of these details are not visible from the two bordering areas. And most important, the big areas are blocked entirely from each other, as an effect of the donut construction. The main arena will remain a bit barren, because it is not possible to add too many details to it without getting an exploding polycount. The surrounding halls and corridors will be more detailed. Each area will be completely vis-blocked from each other, so at least the smaller places can be done with more details.
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Post by grieve[Q2C] on Aug 20, 2005 13:22:00 GMT -5
Hmm, the title will be "Epic Arena", so a monumental and somewhat barren look fits to the theme anyway. It's even required.
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Post by Yun on Aug 20, 2005 13:23:00 GMT -5
If you're getting that high of r_speeds, you have too many curves. It is Quake2, I wouldn't worry about making everything look incredibly smooth.
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Post by grieve[Q2C] on Aug 20, 2005 13:41:40 GMT -5
Yeah, that's the point. There are nearly no curves in the main arena itself. The donut passage has the most curves, and most of them are completely invisible from the main arena. They don't add much to the visible polycount in the big arena. But standing on the high platforms close to the walls gave me the highest r_speeds, on a place where you would suppose that most of the arena is hidden from the view. I noticed that nearly all details under the platforms could be seen by the engine ( though not by me) when I was standing up there, which was completely unnecessary. So I divided the airspace in the arena with hintbrushes. It got at least a bit better. Surely there is much more to optimize. Most important is to block the visiblity between the big areas, and this works fine with this sort of doorways. Because the engine does not look around 3 or 4 corners ....
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Post by Yun on Aug 20, 2005 13:54:41 GMT -5
Heh. If you can put at least 128 units on either side of your "donut" you will block out the visibility.
Be careful when using QuArK's build tools. I would highly suggest building it all yourself, but that's just a preference.
I hope your main walls are 128 units high, and your trim is 64 or 32. Quake2 likes it when you work within those kind of grid specs. At least, that's what it seems like to me. On the plus side, all of the textures fit to those specs.
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Post by AAAGGHHH!! on Aug 20, 2005 14:11:26 GMT -5
Hey I was about to say...that's Q3? LOL...but yea looking good Grieve! All you guys rock for making awesome maps! Thank you! Could I ask anyone for the best links to the files/maps you guys like to share so others can download your' files/maps? I'm building a links page for www.bringersofdeath.org since my work has slowed down. I'm getting ready for Q4 as well! What about you guys?
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Post by grieve[Q2C] on Aug 20, 2005 14:54:17 GMT -5
Well, my map, "when it's done", will be surely on this server. [ftp]ftp://65.25.162.32/quake2/grieve/[/ftp] There is also a lot of Q2 stuff there which me and others uploaded, so browsing around there you might find some fancy stuff. It is sometimes down or unavailable. If it is, just try later. Hmm, if I find some other links I'm gonna tell you. Quake 4, yeah. You will need a powerhouse machine for that. I'm trying to save the bucks for it. Considering that a real high end rig will cost around 1500.- Euro .... I could afford only one half of it now.
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Post by grieve[Q2C] on Aug 20, 2005 15:17:41 GMT -5
Yun, no need to conjecture if your donut works or not. Typing this: gl_ext_multitexture 0 gl_showtris 1 vid_restart will show you exactly which polys are really visible for the engine from the spot you stand, and which are not. The walls inside the donut passage are 256 high, btw. I use the Quake 3 textures in their original size, and most of them are that big in an 1:1 pixel scale. Which is even good for the performance, so far. I scale them down to 0.5 of their size on the brush faces whereever they don't look right in their original scale, which is mostly for floors and trims. Thanks to experiments by Panzer and Jester I believe that the performance hit in a map which uses entirely textures in a 0.5 scale would be around 30%. So you know that's the price for the better looking surfaces which have 4 times more pixels on each square unit. Mixing 1:1 and 0.5 scale should run better than that. Another performance hit is caused by the metal construction towers which are made of transparent textures ( never seen something like that in Q2, btw). Quake 2 does not like transparency too much. Most of the structures in the arena are only to avoid the sideeffects of these towers ( llaaaggg!!) They stand on big gothic blocks, so that the player can not step towards the transparent parts and see them closeup, which would show that the metal parts are also still partially transparent. Or to avoid the look through 2 of these towers in a row, which would make slower machines nearly freeze. This is also the reason why the "main road" through the arena is heightened: to prevent the direct look through 2 of these transparent towers at once. So it's about turning restrictions into stylish elements that look as if they were supposed to be like that. ;D And the idea is still to create a Quake 3 map in Quake 2, a map which would be believable as a Quake 3 map in Quake 3.
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Post by Yun on Aug 21, 2005 2:30:30 GMT -5
I believe that Maric has used this technique in quite a few of his maps.
I've used that technique as well in some of my earlier projects.
I'm well aware of the gl_showtris, and r_speeds, cvars.
Here is another tip for you, and everyone else.
Use
gl_clear 1
to test your maps if you have a hole. What this does is remove the HOM effect, and replace it with bright pink. Since I do a lot of testing for scale and connectivity, this really helps me get my bearing, and not give me a headache.
If I contruct the donut right in the first place, there's no reason to do constant testing to see if it works.
I'm happy that you have lots of theory to work from though. I don't dispute that you know your stuff.
- Yun.
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Post by grieve[Q2C] on Aug 21, 2005 7:05:44 GMT -5
Using gl_showtris is most important during optimizing the map. It's not for details like the donut doorway which work reliably and do not need further control, but generally to look at the amount of details in each area while building new structures and to see the effect that optimisation measures have, for example in different places of the main arena (dividing the place with hint brushes to let qbsp make different cuts). In a map that pushes intentionally against the limitations of the Quake 2 engine it is crucial to make permanent performance tests. I am very fussy about things like HOMs in my maps. I usually find them very fast.
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Post by grieve[Q2C] on Aug 21, 2005 7:21:05 GMT -5
Technique ... you mean texture transparency ? Yeah, I've seen that sometimes by other mappers. Of course. What I have NOT seen is that bigger, integral parts of building structures have been done that way in Quake 2, like the metal framework towers under the platforms in my arena. The performance issues are generally a good reason to avoid this, but I found it interesting enough to try it out.
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Post by Le Ray [Q2C] on Aug 22, 2005 12:19:43 GMT -5
Looks good Grieve!
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