I didn't find any flow issues with this map at all. I quite like encouraging players to be creative and make trick jumps in order to navigate the map. Very CPMA, this one is. The lighting was a touch bright for my taste, with quite a few areas approaching full-bright. But I really dug this one.
I like the textures on this one. You should really explore using phong shading with arghrad to really make the curved areas look nice. I'll bet it would make a world of difference (just set the value on surfaces without checking the light option -- surfaces with the same value will be phong shaded together). There was also one texture misalignment/oddity I noticed on the tiles bordering a hole in the floor (if I remember correctly).
One weapon of each type, except BFG 2x GA, yA, RA, 5x armor shards 4x large health packs, MH, 5x small health packs
Ruined palace? themed medium sized quite vertical map. Very simple brushwork that makes mainly corridors and vertical small in horizontal rooms, except the ruined parts and the RA area which have more work. Good choice and well aligned textures. Corridorish more vertical than horizontal layout with several windpads reliance on ramps, stairs, windpads and two teleporters to change floors and reliance on jumps to get to the hidden items. Lighting is a bit brighter than Id DM maps, and quite dull, as has low contrast. Combats happen between floors and in corridors, with variety of situations and chances for ambushes.
Good solid map, looks almost like another custom Quake 3 map in everything. It has variety on connections, good exploration, vertical gameplay, sense on discovery the higher one goes (feels a bit like a singleplayer map in that regard), good scale and height between floors, a bit over-reliance on corridor up corridor down type of layout. It isn't always clear at first which direction one should take when taking windpads half the times. Lighting is a bit dull, and brushwork too simple in regard to having big walls, and those two issues joined make the map lack detail. Nice idea on RG placement. Good idea signaling the windpads route with lights, break a bit the theme, but are OK.
- Add more contrast on lighting, maybe by blocking sunlight with brushwork here and there. - Add some details on the walls and floor or add some in-outs with brushwork to create shadows. - Add a bigger push on the windpads or change the angle a bit towards where the player should go from them. - Add some small changes in height here and there. - Add some side areas or dead ends, now the layout is too linear sometimes. - Give more personality to some of the parts of the map, like the one with the small health packs on the top.
Last Edit: Apr 13, 2015 16:19:41 GMT -5 by cocerello
I finally have some time to view,check a map and give feedback... Mapping is for me Art..I love DETAiLs and technical difficult maps!. ============================================================================
first - I really do not understand how this map become first place.
I'm not gonna lie..
- The map gameplay is fast good! - Texturing choice is very fresh, well done!.. - Brushwork is good!. - Light & shadow ALLL Good!....( 20% darker is more my taste ).. - Unfortunately this maps does not have much details... - High quality hmmmmm?? this map is sloppy & poorly finished Spirit..
This map is design only for fast game play speed... I see a lot Q3 style, recognizable Q3 style. your mapping style has changed..it`s so different.. or two people have been working on this map??.. or you spent 95% time in design layout and textures, and 5% in neatly finish..
because my english is bad,IT SUCKS soooo I show screenshots....
The room with water and wood planks from a distance it looks very interesting, but once inside i`m disappointed, the room, the stones,the corners are sloppy. again I see two different styles, two people mapping...
The lights with power cord are fresh idea`s for Q2..good!. but the rectangle lights & lighting at jump pad are too simple, you design a fast speed map so why are the lights not neatly in the wall?.
And and what happened to your elevator?..
and the stairs??.. wall & ceiling is also not correct...
http screen http screen
here a hole in the stairs..
Conclusion: A fast good play map, but i`m disappointed in neatly finishing because i know You can do so much better!..
you have a good attention to detail, surprised me with the fifth screenshot. I wouldn't have done that much even if i wasn't so rushed at testing the maps. In fact saw some of those, but passed on reporting them in detail (and others i forgot), i wasn't into such precision, and mainly tired of testing.
Took me a while to figure out the second and third ones. the third was easier, and from that could get the third.
Also, if you want to check those kind of things, Margaal, there is more. Check the side of the platform of the elevator, or the broken tiles and the place where those tiles join the texture that surround the pad, or the top texture that surrounds the pad itself. The same happens in the pad the leads to the CG. On the floor on top of the hole of the first pad, if you look at the curve on the right, it is unaligned with the rest of the floor tiles. Also the place where the limit of the water with air is, on the small tiles texture, left of the pad. the texture on the side of the brush where the GA is placed on. the Some of those i pointed out i think that are more to blame to the texture itself than to brushwork, because the details they have aren't power of 2, making giving the brushes the perfect size harder.
Well, it isn't exactly hard for this kind of things to happen in most maps, but i suppose you were this precise because it got the first place, and lacked the category in our eyes
Last Edit: Apr 13, 2015 16:15:09 GMT -5 by cocerello
It all comes down to personal preference and I'm sure all of us have very different taste as to what a 'good' map looks like, however, one must see the value in gameplay over details. Details are important but not this important, this map's gameplay/flow is sick! It is way easier to nit-pick and adjust every brush/texture for months than it is to design a layout that works this well. This right here is design at its finest. Detailing? That's easy, it just takes time. Would you rather tumble around on a detailed map or have awesome matches on a fast flowing map? Don't get me wrong, I love details too but I find it secondary to gameplay as long as you have basic good-looking geometry going which spirit certainly has in this one. The most insane examples I've seen on incredible-looking details coupled with good gameplay (In Q2) are some of Jester's maps.
Margaal has some valid points. But as much as the details are important, I have to agree with giftmacher. I know it's sometimes hard to see this when you get lost in the details. One can even go mad that way. There's even a saying, that devil is in the details, so don't lose yourself in the process and let him consume your soul
And if there's anything that the mappers should take away from this contest it is this. DM suitablity is the main key to making your map successful long term, and if you failed here, to the players the rest will not matter either.
There are plenty of beautiful maps that don't see the light of day, and never get played, because their creators didn't quite understand this important and crucial fact. If you're making a multiplayer map, in the end you're making a map for the players.
A well designed Gameplay will always overrule any esthetic or technical shortcomings the map might have, If the map flows and plays well, the players will forgive you and might not even notice anything else.
They're more likely to appreciate the though that went into making them happy.
What spirit does, in the initial stages of design with pen and paper goes a long way to ensure player happiness, possibly even at the expense of his own happiness. He first creates the core layout, roughs out the map's character, in the top down matter, before he begins to fleshes it out. It's a time consuming art form, that most don't entertain.
On the other hand, if you don't give this stage much thought and work bottom up, you might get into trouble later trying to fit a fun layout that flows. This shouldn't be left to the last minute, but should be the focal point of your whole design.
I've seen maps that look like crap, but played well, and survived the test of time. So if it plays well, it can still win with a beautiful map that plays horribly.
In order to understand this better, you have to have close contact with players and their feedback. They're quite moody, but also quite fair. And there are many factors that fall under DM suitability, but just a handful of core ones that ensure success. I'll go over them in a little more detail later.
So in conclusion: To create a fun user experience isn't easy but it is well worth the trouble. It is also an art that needs great attention, probably more than esthetics. I think we shouldn't be making maps for ourselves, but for our players, who will ultimately decide if they are any good in the end... good enough to keep.
okay gameplay above details..i understand!. I only play against bots..I design in my maps routes for the bots, extra stairs, and teleporter. because bots get stuck in elevators, jumppads...
For me is details in my maps very important, no details in my maps this means to me no motivation to make new maps..., I design and look for challenges, try making maps that have not yet been made,or never seen ever!.
And about feedback top 5 maps, I give my opinion and thought only and only to the designer of the map, and not to the readers!...which again give me commentary and say gameplay is above details,.....then I ask myself a question what am I doing here in this forum, pffff... I'm done with all my details feedback, My Englische sucks, my maps is on 7e place.....soooooo I will no longer interfere.
Last Edit: Apr 15, 2015 12:51:45 GMT -5 by Deleted
No please don't stop. You might have misunderstood me, because we need this kind of feedback. What you're doing is awesome!
You have a great eye for details, which is something you're very good at, better than me any ways. My expertise is quite different and it involves watching players, getting feedback and trying to make them happy. This is a tricky struggle that I don't always win. I would never even have spotted some of the flaws you found here, so that's is why its good to have someone like you on board with hawk eyes. I really appreciate it too, and I don't see it in any form as some kind of interference, but just the contrary. I love what you have said, because it made it clear that now even spirit has something to work on.
We're a community and each member has their strong sides, and weak sides. The goal is to overtime learn from each other and balance them in a way in which we can all learn something and get better. The wealth of knowledge that we take away here will help us make maps that are both beautiful and everyone will want to play. I think that is a reasonable goal for all of us. You're an integral part of that, because if there's anyone here who can spot these kinds of technical flaws, it's is you, and we need you very much!
This map was done in a hurry, and I agree with Margaal that the texturing and lighting is far from optimal / what I could achieve / whatever. I spent a lot of time thinking about a layout, and far less on texturing/lighting, and it shows in places. But I think it's not so bad that it distracts players or would keep them from playing the map, even if they give a lot about the looks of a map. Given the time I had, I am happy with it.
With more time, I could have added my usual floor trims, for example. I could also have used textures that are integrated with the brushwork better instead of being "rings" around the whole map (I think these 2 things are what Margaal refers to when he says the style is different than my other maps). But given the time I had, I made a decision and for the time invested, I am happy with it. (Making those damn trims also bores me to death, I gotta admit.)
How important things like looks and gameplay are relative to each other is a matter of taste, and there is no right or wrong here imo. You are making great maps Margaal, and I think you should not stop this because of different opinions of people how they prefer them.