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Post by Le Ray [Q2C] on Dec 28, 2005 14:20:14 GMT -5
Hey Zorius, good to see you again!
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Post by draxi on Dec 29, 2005 5:58:59 GMT -5
Do You allow me to say a few words? This will be a fine map indeed. And if it's beta, let me tell You something. One key element of fine mapping is texture blending. This is what makes your level awesome looking while it's f***ing easy to do. On the 2nd shot we can see a great example of it, but You can improve it in a few, easy steps, in just minutes! Don't just split up the walls and the floors, ceils to pieces and texture them differently, go forward: move the brushes away from their plane. I mean, for example on the wall: move the lower brush 16px (for example!) out, the upper one 32px in... or bend one of them in 45 degrees or so. Do You understand? And also: on the floor and ceiling move the brushes up-down, away from each other. This will make it more exciting, and also will effect the final lighting too, because of the different depths. Hope You will find my comment constructive rather than offensive. Keep up the good work! thanx for the comments Zorius!! i really didn't understand all of it.. but ill try my best edit: hmmm, you know its water on the floor on the second shot.. would that have any effect on lightning and things like that?
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zorius
Quake 2 Mapping Club
Posts: 103
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Post by zorius on Dec 29, 2005 9:32:23 GMT -5
Hi LeRay! You are always changing your name? It doesn't matter, we all know who You are!!! Or You are not him, just so cute that You promote that bastard's maps? Joking. Hey Skel, wait a sec, I'll show You.
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zorius
Quake 2 Mapping Club
Posts: 103
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Post by zorius on Dec 29, 2005 10:28:53 GMT -5
So here it is, the first picture is your map (short of...) zorius.dionussos.com/images/temp/skeletor1.jpgAnd a few quick changes on the brushes: zorius.dionussos.com/images/temp/skeletor2.jpgDownload both pictures and switch between them quickly, and You will see the differences. These are easy-quick improvements, You can combine them in unlimited variatons. It's just a quick example, of course You have to polish all the angles and distances. Can You see that all of the surfaces are angled now? Does it look better? Look at that wall with the lamps: in your version and in the improved one. So I meant something like this, it's not enough to spilt the walls up, you have to put in angles too, or move them, so they won't be in one plane. Ok? C'mon, do it, do it! Bacardi-cola do it! ;-)
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Post by whirlingdervish on Dec 29, 2005 12:27:39 GMT -5
It does seem to make the map look a little more interesting... takes away that wolfenstein 3d boxed-in feeling when you use angles other than 90 degrees. The variation in the elevations of certain bits of the floor looks nicer as long as you can run unhindered across the room without having to jump every little 'step'.
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zorius
Quake 2 Mapping Club
Posts: 103
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Post by zorius on Dec 29, 2005 13:04:54 GMT -5
So You know what I'm talking about! Yes it's very important to use the features of an engine, if we can, why don't we? In q3 You use curves in d3 bumpmaps and real lighting etc. About the floor: of course, You are right. Anyway, that floor patches are 8px high (just to know: the stair is 16px), and still we can clip the whole floor or just to make a ledge to all sides of them. The reason is why You think You can stuck is because the shadows: the details are far more deep that without any elevations. All of them any the angles too are playing with the lights, look how exciting are those shadows are! Though I just scattered a few default lights!
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Post by grieve[Q2C] on Dec 29, 2005 14:48:44 GMT -5
but don't forget about the map plausability (this was the term I found) the textures represent materials, and the structures which are built with these supposed materials should be believable as such. of course you can pave a wall also with blinking shootable switches or lava .... but then you are creating a Cranky Steve map. now, how believable is a brickwall which is done in another agle than 90 degrees ? when you overuse blending and other effects, your map can easily become too formalistic, that is, effectively uninteresting. there is nothing more important than a strong idea and a inspired layout. slick mapping techniques may be added to spice up things a bit, but I think it's not the really important part. worse ... I think the Quake mapping scene has been stiffening in such formalisms lately, many of the maps are getting somehow overripe and stale. this was my impression of the last map of many great talents. on the other side, there are some newcomers who do raw stuff without much standard .... also not my thing. maps would have to be grungy and inspired, with a strong and immersive atmosphere, but also technically accomplished.
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Post by draxi on Dec 29, 2005 15:05:10 GMT -5
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Post by whirlingdervish on Dec 29, 2005 17:46:05 GMT -5
Good points all around!
In the case of the "brick wall", 90 degrees is fitting, unless the masons were a bit drunk, or the wall is supposed to look old/damaged. if there is a large hole in the wall a little slope makes it look like an impact effect..
If you make a bunch of concrete looking pylons and pillars though, a couple of tiny variations in degrees can make them look aged/decrepit. (like one or two are slowly falling over)
The ceiling on the other hand should give you at least a vague impression of the general outline of the roof/outside of the building... (unless its a corridor or passage/hallway) If you slope the ceilings in the larger chambers and rooms a bit (like this /) or make them vaulted (like this ^) your brain will assume that there is a roof on the other side of that same ceiling that slopes off.. even if there really is no roof on the building (ie. you can't ever get up there 'cause its not part of the map....) Otherwise you have to assume that it never snows or rains on Stroggos...
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zorius
Quake 2 Mapping Club
Posts: 103
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Post by zorius on Dec 29, 2005 17:51:17 GMT -5
Yes, You are saying good things, mapping is a bit of routine.
But, let's get back to my "map". First of all, I have made it in 15 minutes, and I selected the textures as the first one I saw, I totally didn't care about its theme. The thing is that You don't see the forest because of a tree. Who talked about my texture set? It depends on Skel to choose the right set, I just wanted to explain very quickly and effectively my ideas. Otherwise: (just because You started to speak about this, although I could choose ANY texture) it's not brick. Again: IT'S NOT BRICK! Brick is what the walls made of. If the stupid artist at id called it brick, is one thing. It's clinker, You know what it is? It's not a support element, it's for the outer design of walls. Therefore You can cover any, I mean ANY kind of shapes with it, even curves!!! Haven't You seen bulidings with insane angles and fully covered with this "brick"? Ehh, what are we talking about? If the only thing what I acquired that "an angled wall with brick is stupid" then I really failed. Crap. I wish I could find a picture from Hungary for You, I love when people use just this stuff to cover their bulidings, and all the other design is the SHAPE. Skel, do what You want. It was just an idea. Of course it's just something I have learnt, therefore it's not creative. But it can be "sold", not like creative but crap maps...
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Post by draxi on Dec 30, 2005 15:23:19 GMT -5
im really thankful zorius!! =).. you gave me lots of new "ideas" on how to make the map more fun to play... but the theme for the map is more castle like.. so i guess a cant really use to much angeled walls..
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zorius
Quake 2 Mapping Club
Posts: 103
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Post by zorius on Dec 30, 2005 20:35:54 GMT -5
Not at all!
Sure, it depends on your deceisions, they are just ideas for your mapping future! I'm glad if I could help even a bit! See You
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Post by 3fing3redfi3nd on Jan 4, 2006 16:28:43 GMT -5
Maybe ole Grievey should make a map finally and show us what he means.
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zorius
Quake 2 Mapping Club
Posts: 103
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Post by zorius on Jan 5, 2006 10:11:34 GMT -5
Sure. We all starve for it!!! It's quite easy to be clever about others' things, but it's really hard to be clever when we are doing our own things...
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Post by grieve[Q2C] on Jan 5, 2006 15:35:36 GMT -5
because of that I, like, avoid doing my own things ..... yah, I know. grievedm01 is overdue. grievearena01, respectively.
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