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Post by marscaleb on Jul 7, 2021 22:31:54 GMT -5
That's odd, both of the links Grieve posted work for me. And they're from the file server he recently set up. I guess you have to be logged in to that server or something? All I can say is I get a "Not Found" page. You got that wrong- the game DLL is part of a mod's files that go in the mod's subfolder- it seamlessly load/unloads and won't overwrite/replace anything! Well that's good to know! Perhaps I should ask: what is there that I can't edit without overwriting the original data? Apart from changes to the source code of course. The code change required to increase it (18 or maybe 19 more) is quite minor. The real difficulty is in setting the spawnflags correctly in both corresponding crosslevel_trigger and crosslevel_target entities in the editor. That's good to know, but it still changes the project from being a pure mod to being a standalone. Either way I still have to decide just how far I want to take this. Thank you for all this information; it's exactly what I need to figure out what of my plans are feasible. Also, you wouldn't want to try to position the maps in a hub/unit if they were one giant map, as stock Q2 limits map size to +/-4096 units from the origin on all 3 axis. KMQ2 enables the use of 4x that range, but only when compiling the map with kmqbsp3. I am not at all surprised.
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Post by marscaleb on Jul 4, 2021 10:47:18 GMT -5
Just as I said, most of the links I find are dead. Both of those links you posted give 404's. I can answer most of your questions on Q2 SP map making. This was SUPER helpful! More than anything else, now I know what I'm up against. This is what I really wanted to know. You can't create custom keys without programming changes- they must be added to the item table in g_items.c in the game DLL source, and the DLL must be recompiled. Hmm, but that's a DLL file, so in theory I could still make a mod with new keys that could be placed on top of an existing Q2 install; that is, someone could still play the original game and mods and stuff after installing such a custom map. Oh but wait, since it is replacing that file, if other people had made mods that likewise added new keys they would have incompatible DLL files, so running a mod for that would still require someone to backup their original files, or at least use a special exe or bat that renames files just for use with the mod. Dang. Okay, so what about using the same keys but making them look different? I could swap out the in-game models and the HUD icons with new graphics. Do I have user-level access to the text for what they are called in-game? Come to think of it, do I have user-level access to the in-game text for things like mission objectives? And then again, I should make sure: Does Quake 2 support the same kind of user-overriding of files that Doom has? Where a custom mod can just have a file with the same name as an OG file and the game just loads the new version instead? The only limiting factor is that there are only 8 crosslevel trigger bits implemented in the game DLL (using the spawnflags key for target_crosslevel_trigger and target_crosslevel_target), so you can only make 8 crosslevel triggered events. Note that this does not include "find the key and return" level objectives. So I'm guessing that would cover... anything that impacts another map, beyond what the player is carrying? Anything from opening a door to spawning in extra enemies. But I guess to keep down on crosslevel events I could have one map provide access to a start position in another map, putting the player in a spot one could not conventionally reach, which serves only to allow the player hit a switch within that map. I vaguely recall seeing that done in the original game at some point. Dang, no more than eight without re-writing the source. But that's eight per hub/unit, so I guess there's that. With the Lazarus mod (built into KMQ2), you can also use the trigger_transition entity for seamless map changes that keep the player's exact position and carry over nearby entities. You have my attention. But I suppose this also requires the level geometry to be built in the same position in worldspace? Or does it just require to place something to be used as an anchor point? Basically, would I be able to fudge the distances between two transition points (so they are not actually the same distance apart in both maps), or reposition entire map sections for editing convenience? Or would each map in a hub/unit need to be built as if the entire thing were one immense map if I wanted to use this feature?
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Post by marscaleb on Jul 2, 2021 21:39:00 GMT -5
It's hard to find good Quake 2 map/mod tutorials these days. Half of what I find in searches just leads to a dead link, and most of the rest depends on programs that don't run anymore and/or also are "found" through dead links.
The only legitimate things I have found are centered entirely on making multiplayer maps. And that's a fine way to start to be sure, but the single-player maps have a lot more stuff going on that I have no idea how to handle.
How do you set up inter-connected maps, or hub maps? How do I set up things to require keys? Can I create custom keys? Set up monsters to appear after an event? These are all things that one would want in a Quake 2 single player level.
Also, I'm really curious what the limits of a single-player hub map is. How many levels could I connect into a single "world"? What elements pose limits to how big and complex of a single "world" can be? What has to be consistent across an entire world? Like, can I change skyboxes between maps or does that have to remain consistent?
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Post by marscaleb on Nov 8, 2019 0:04:16 GMT -5
RtCW multiplayer was pretty much superseded by Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, I was not aware of this, and looking it up, I can see why that would take the multiplayer focus. Oh well then; with that I've basically lost interest in a multiplayer patch. Thanks for the info.
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Post by marscaleb on Nov 7, 2019 0:06:38 GMT -5
So I just picked up Return to Castle Wolfenstein from GOG. Never played it before, thought I would try it. Right away discovered a problem with the game not supporting widescreen any better than vanilla Quake 3, but I found a nice unofficial patch by Knightmare that fixes that problem. But the multiplayer runs on a separate executable, and the patch didn't fix widescreen for it.
Are there any other options or source ports to get the multiplayer running in widescreen too? I don't know how much I would ever play the multiplayer, but still, I'd like it as an option.
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Post by marscaleb on Aug 17, 2019 18:05:50 GMT -5
You need to type "sv addbot" in the console to add ACE bots. "sv removebot <botname>" removes them one at a time. Oh I see, the problem was that I tried to do that from the in-game console when I wasn't hosting. I can add them from the console on the dedicated server though. So, these aren't the kind of bots I'm looking for. I'd be expecting them to play with beginners, so I'd need ones that are smart in terms of navigating, but bad in terms of providing a challenge to players. These guys who crouch all the time and can hit me with a blaster the very first frame I am visible to them just won't cut it. Also, I have to add them manually each level. KMQuake2 also supports Q3A-style .arena files (scripts/<mapname>.arena) that allow for filtering maps based on gametype (DM, CTF, 3TCTF, coop). Okay; where do I get information on how to create these scripts? (Both in general terms and in terms of specifics for KM Quake 2.) Note that the maps.lst/.arena files are only used when starting a non-dedicated "listen" server via the in-game menu. In my KMQ2 dev branch, I've been experimenting with a "dedicated server" option that shuts down the client and launches a dedicated server. This feature is still a ways away. ...Oh. Well then, another time, I suppose. In baseq2 you can edit maps.lst to omit or include maps you want on the list. I notice this list includes all the single player levels; this leaves me curious how I would get a game to automatically cycle to a custom map that is in the list, or rather, cycle through just the maps I want. I'm currently working on a bot mod for kmquake2 which is highly configurable, if you're interested in testing it out pm me for more details. Cool; I'll send a message when I have the time to help test it.
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Post by marscaleb on Aug 17, 2019 13:08:22 GMT -5
Did you check to see if those cvars had actually been set (i.e. typing them it so it outputs their values)? Which kmq2gamex86.dll were you using (default Lazarus, missionpack, Zaero, 3ZB2, etc)? Also note that timelimit and fraglimit don't do anything if deathmatch isn't enabled. How would I do that? Also, it seemed like it was running deathmatch, since, well, it was playing deathmatch. As an alternative, you could just make a shortcut to kmquake2 (maybe on your desktop) and edit the properties to look something like: Target: C:\Quake2\kmquake2.exe +set dedicated 1 +exec Q2server.cfg I like using batch files. It reminds me that I'm old. ...wait... Also, make sure that your Q2server.cfg is located in the default baseq2 folder (or the mod folder -if you're running a mod), and add any cvars supported. Thaaaaaat would be my problem. And now I've fixed it. Thanks! While I'm on the subject, I'm curious how I would set up various options for a dedicated server. For one, I'm curious how I could set up a map list. I'm checking out some various dm maps I've found online that I would like to play through. But I can't even get them to appear on the list of maps I can select for multiplayer, much less have the game cycle through them. By default the game only cycles through the "q2dm" maps. An honestly, I would be pleased if I could specify an exact list so I can repeat certain maps. Also I'm curious what I can do with bots. Each time a dm map starts I have this message displayed about "Ace Bot" but I can't seem to get any bots added. There's also this "Eraser Bot" that came with the GOG version, but likewise I don't know how to set them up, or what bot mod is the most worth adding. I don't get a lot of people who want to play Quake 2 at the event I set up my computers for, so it would be nice if I could add some good (but weak) bots that people could play against.
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Post by marscaleb on Aug 16, 2019 23:49:19 GMT -5
I was trying to run a dedicated server for KM Quake 2, but I found the options I had set were not working. I followed the instruction I found online for setting up quake 2 servers. I created a .cfg file with the following:
set hostname "Salt Lake Gaming Con" set maxclients 16 set timelimit 10 set fraglimit 10 map q2dm1 And I ran a batch with the following:
kmquake2.exe +set dedicated 1 +map q2dm1 +exec Q2server.cfg
But when I ran it, the game never ended after 10 minutes, nor after ten frags.
I don't know if this is an error in KM Quake 2, or if you have extended it with new server options that require different syntax. I hope its the latter because I want to set up a complete map cycle where I can specify specific maps in a list, like I can in Quake 3, and I'd be super pleased if KM Quake 2 had that feature.
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Post by marscaleb on Aug 14, 2019 22:43:37 GMT -5
No I meant as just a different way to calculate the lighting, as in, a different way to generate the lightmaps that the engine uses, not how the engine uses those lightmaps. Not that it really matters anyway; I'm just trying to understand how these things work, rather than design a new system.
Well, sort-of not interested in designing a new system.
I've got this desire to make a low-poly shooter. I don't think I'm going to work on it just yet, but I can't get it out of my head, so maybe after I finish this other project I've got going on. And when I think of what I would like to make it with, well, there's something about the Quake 2 engine that just looks right. I don't know what it is, but it is something with its visuals that just feels right. Quake 1 and UT99 come close, but Quake 3+ and Unity and UE4 just don't quite capture the right feel, and I can't get them to look quite the same way that Quake 2 does.
So I lean heavily towards building this game from Quake 2. But that would bring a number of limitations with the net code. So the last day or two I've been curious if it would be possible to get Quake 3 to properly capture that "feel" that Quake 2 had. And I thought maybe it was in the lighting. Maybe if I could get Quake 3 to reproduce Quake 2's lighting, then I could build the game from Quake 3 so I could use its better net code. But I guess the differences between the two engines is greater than I had anticipated.
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Post by marscaleb on Aug 14, 2019 20:13:40 GMT -5
I get that the BSP formats would be different, and thus they would need different code insofar as compiling the data is concerned. But prior to compiling the final file, I would imagine these should all be interchangeable. I mean, most of the level editors explicitly work with a number of different games because they save the map data in their own proprietary formats, and those map files are just the data for the brushes/shapes and then compile and bake all the data into the formats needed for the games. Thus you could build level geometry for the original Quake but later decide to change it to Quake 3 without having to rebuild everything from scratch; one would only need to handle any items that are outright not compatible with another version.
And I'm thinking that the lighting should be basically the same. With all the light sources saved in the map, one could theoretically build the lighting to any number of different models. From simple linear casting to multi-level ray-tracing that calculates bounce lighting with added color to match textures. After that it just becomes a matter of then saving that calculated lighting into the format needed for the game. So if I used a lighting program that tried to calculate bounce light color, it would have little impact in a Quake 1 map since the lightmaps don't have color data. If I make highly detailed lighting calculations and then try to save it in a game with low-resolution lightmaps, well then I just wasted that effort. Hence why these older games use much simpler lighting calculations. (That and the build times.) But theoretically it would be possible to do so.
Or am I wrong about that? And if I am wrong about that, then what is so different about the lighting tools between these games?
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Post by marscaleb on Aug 14, 2019 1:22:29 GMT -5
Hmm, so do you think Quake 3 would look the same as Quake 2 if you just reduced the light map resolution and didn't use curve patches?
Also, am I right in my assumptions about how the lighting works? I have very little experience making Quake maps. When I tried to get into Quake mapping the other year, I noticed that the lighting was calculated through a secondary application, so it seems to me that you could just grab whatever program you want (that exists) and so I'd imagine the lighting calculations would be the same between the two games if you used the same program. Is this correct, or do you actually need different programs to generate lighting for the different engines? Do the light entities and lightmap calculations actually work differently between the two games?
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Post by marscaleb on Aug 14, 2019 0:11:08 GMT -5
I'm just feeling curious about some technical differences between the Quake 2 and Quake 3 engines.
Today I was looking at a Quake 3 map that was styled to look pretty close to a Quake 2 map. I don't know exactly what the difference is, but it showed that the way things were rendered in Q3 were profoundly different than Q2. It wasn't just the color depth of the textures, but it was something else. Maybe it was the lighting, but I'm not entirely sure how. I mean, strictly speaking the lighting is calculated through a secondary program, so theoretically couldn't you have some highly realistic lighting computed for the game's lightmaps? But yet everything in Quake 2 looks so much grittier and darker than Quake 3. Would it be possible to bake the lightmaps in Quake 3 to Quake 2's standards, and give it that same gritty look? Or is there more at play that has changed the rendering between the two engines?
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Post by marscaleb on May 4, 2019 19:20:16 GMT -5
I was just thinking about the RNG in Doom, and it's something that I find absolutely brilliant. It shows that these people understood numbers, having played enough D&D to understand the effects of a truly random die roll. Doom resolves the problems with truly random results with the beautiful simplicity of a pre-determined list of results. It has the effect of feeling random, but it lets them hand-tweak the results to make some results a little higher than others to make players a little happier, and make sure that no random result is too similar to one that came before it. It's such a brilliant method that it seems to me like this is how most games should pursue RNG, so that they can avoid the problems found with truly random results.
And especially as I was thinking about that last statment, I began to wonder how these same people handled RNG in their later games. So... How does Quake, Quake 2, and Quake 3 handle RNG? How do they create their random values?
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Post by marscaleb on Feb 21, 2019 19:49:23 GMT -5
I was just kinda wondering, has anyone made any games based off of the Quake 2 source code? Like, an original game. Or maybe maybe a mod that is almost its own game but still uses some Quake 2 assets. I'm also wondering if someone has done this with Quake 1 or 3. But that being said, I did see some games mentioned on the wikipedia pages for the id tech 2 and 3 engines. Some of them look cool. But I'm wondering what else might be out there. I mean, it seems to me like there should be a bunch of idie developers messing around with this. Wasn't there a big mod community back in the day? Some of that still should be around. I really would expect there to be some more entries to these lists.
But I don't really know where to begin looking for that kind of stuff, so I thought I'd ask here.
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Post by marscaleb on Jul 10, 2018 0:42:41 GMT -5
It's likely the computer that KMQuake2 crashed on has some failing hardware, maybe the GPU or CPU/RAM, or even the PSU. The fallback to safe mode-like video sounds like the video driver crashed. If you can't reproduce this on the two other identical PCs, then it definitely is the hardware. That sounds like a very reasonable deduction. Still, it never had problems with other games. But maybe that's because the other games were running Direct3D instead of Open GL. For that matter, it could have been one of the kids that was playing on it hitting some weird button combination, for all I know. (I had a lot more people this year who accidentally hit the windows key and had no idea how to get back into the game.) As far as the menu background image, my thought personally was to have it cropped, not pillarboxed. I was using a desaturated image of the Quake 2 logo myself, and an image like that would work best as a super-long image (maybe 2048x1024) that just has the edges cut off more or less depending on the aspect ratio. (And if someone plays with some crazy-wide screen, if said logo is centered properly it can be cropped off the top and bottom and still look good.) I can make a copy and email it to you if you want.
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