giftdm7 (WIP) LF feedback

[giftmacher]

Yes I'm looking at your version now, the most important thing for me is your way of using these textures, looks awesome I'm working on aligning it in a similar fashion now, cleanup/brush work I will do myself because it is part of my work process (for me it is like meditating) / I appreciate your help though and I will take some ideas from this for sure. Will post new version at a later time.

[spirit]

I've had a look at the map yesterday, and I like it. Some small texture fixes and adjustments won't hurt, as Margaal pointed out. Lighting is ok, but could use some more contrast in some areas, agree with jdolan here.

On the layout / game play: I like it and I think it works, but some suggestions and stuff that came to my mind are here:

* height levels: There are 2 height levels, which are very strictly separated, and each level has no height variations within itself (with 2 minor exceptions: the area above the flak jacket, and the ramp down to hyperblaster). The interactions between the 2 levels (places where you can see + shoot up from below and vice versa) exist, but there are too few of them imo. This may lead to many fights on a plane. (This is in part a side-effect of the fact that you only used jumppads and teleporters instead of stairs: the entrances/exits of the JPs are so small that it is not possible to interact with the other level through them. For teleporters it'S even worse, no interaction at all is possible.)

* room-corridor-room feeling, low connectivity: there are few distinct places, and quite a few rather tight corridors and small rooms. (I also found it hard to distinguish the rooms and corridors from each other at first.) The map lacks a larger central room with several height levels. Not every map needs this of course, but this may lead to a lot of close-quarter combat after random encounters at corners.

Did not test enough to be able to comment on item placement. (Rail<->BA seemed short, but it's no big deal on such a tight map.)


I know that you are most likely not gonna change the things mentioned above anymore, because it's rather late for this, but maybe it still helps for the future.

Minor stuff:
* the blue texture under that one rocket launcher (even though it is not the other blue jumppad texture) in combination with the blue stripes going up the wall made me think there was a jumppad there leading to the level above it, but there is not.



There are also some things which I found very cool:

* you have already added some cool-looking architecture, (mostly the stuff with the blue texture, and round corridors) which gives the map a rather unique look
* I like the water and broken floor tiles at the flak jacket, makes that area stand out. I also like the half-height level there. (it has a pack of rockets which are too close to the wall btw, if I remember correctly)
* HB on the lowest point of the map, but with an upwards tele next to it
* the jump to MH, and that players can see it from below. (I think it would be even better if the area below it would be an area with more traffic though. While the idea is cool, very few people will actually be shot at from below at that location in a real game I bet.)

[giftmacher]

Great points spirit. I'm aware of the lack of connectivity, I'm slowly getting passed that 'square room/corridor' mapping but I couldn't quite get it going for this one. I look a lot on your maps because they are really good examples of variation on height/connectivity. It might be too late to change but I would like to try, maybe remove the crossroad corridor at the bottom and make it a section that connects all three levels some how. Running out of brushes too (1700+), another area I must improve upon, I use too many brushes.. I wasn't aware of a brush limit until I made my contest map It is a (WIP) map so I don't feel any pressure of finishing it anytime soon so I will keep tinker, really appreciate all the feedback.

* MH, move the jump to a more central area, agree. Possible move the Combat Armor to the MH spot, still a jump, minor item, still a small possibility of getting hit from below.
* I think removing the crossroad corridor would open up a lot of possibilities to connect RA/BA area with central hub area. (Lots of brushes too)

Big thanks!

[jaydolan]

One easy way to avoid all of these texturing issues is to use a bunch of different colored concrete textures -- that is, textures with no major surface features on them. Jester uses this technique _extensively_. Rather than adding detail through texturing, he relies on his brushwork to provide bevels, ridges and accents. That way, your geometry isn't beholden to the texture set. His Quetoo map Gehenna is a pretty good example of this technique:

www.flickr.com/photos/quake2world/sets/72157629595064157/

Notice that hardly any of the textures in this map include details that would require the geometry to accommodate it.

[cocerello]

Good point there, Jaydolan. Given the restrictions Quake 2 textures place on the brushes, relying on textures without major features is a good way to go to avoid these problems. It also helps a lot the mapper to free him from on axis faces and so he can try with more freedom different architectural forms. For example, i had to use this kind of textures extensively in my first map submitted for the contest, as i had no other way to texture the brushes i used on two thirds of the map.

But when using this kind of textures, one should be careful with tiling, even more when taking into account that Quake 2's textures without major features on them are usually very bad at tiling, and most of the rest of them too, unfortunately. Also, the mapper has to take into account that using this textures means that the faces will be visually less busy, so they'll probably need more work on lighting (usually more contrast (hard taking into consideration radiosity) and brushwork to make up for it, point that tends to be important as quake 2 textures are quite visually busy.

[Deleted]

Giftmacher
Every mapper has his own unique mapping style, the task of the mapper itself is to find textures that make mapping easier.

for me maybe 90% just do not fit in my own mapping style,textures just do not fit in the layout that i want to design.

A mapper should ask himself every time a question
why use these textures?, there must be something what attracts attention, maybe it's just the color?.

[giftmacher]

Jaydolan/cocerello, yes that is certainly a much more flexible technique. Great looking map by Jester, also looking at other screens in your library there. I feel much more comfortable working with the baseq2 textures than the ones I'm using here, I just wanted to try something new and wouldn't you know it, I learned new stuff With baseq2 it's way easier to mix different kinds of concrete/basic textures and get some cool geometry going on walls.

Margaal, yes very true, as cocerello pointed out 'tiling' is difficult to pull off and should perhaps be avoided, instead frame small sections of detailed textures with basic/concrete geometry. I look a lot at Id's maps, especially the SP maps, I love how some of them are painted with a 'big brush', like the power plant maps. There is not much detail but the little that they put in is in the right places, catching the attention of the player. I play modern games too but it just amazes me what they managed to do back then with limited resources.

[cocerello]

It's not that tiling is hard to pull off as that's something that depends mainly on the chosen texture, is that most of the textures that come with Id used for Quake 2 are VERY bad at it, except those made of tiles or tile-like structures and some others.

I went into a bit of off-topic there, as your map doesn't rely on them, as far as i can tell.