giftdm7 (WIP) LF feedback

[giftmacher]

Hi!

I Had some energy left over from the contest to make another map! Still under development but I would love some feedback on it. Any help is appreciated, and I can still re-work areas so nothing is final but it would have to be a re-work of rooms/areas. My aim for this map is a decent 'duel map' / small DM map.

Constructive feedback on:

1. Gameplay/flow
2. Texturing
3. Lighting
4. Bugs/Issues
5. Other?

Download

Thank you!

[Null]

Here's some general feedback about the Texturing, and Layout:

I really like this round glowing centerpiece, and the symmetrical design:



I'm not a fan of this blue / purple texture, I think you can find something cleaner:



This area has quite an interesting design but the gray walls here are quite plain, and are lacking something, maybe a simple trim texture. Interesting lighting btw:



Same thing here, the blue / purple texture is pretty ugly, and the gray walls here could use some more detail:



This is probably my favorite locale in this map. I like the subtle gray / brown balance here.
This shot looks nice and clean, and the lighting / shadows highlight the details well in this area:

[MaRiNe [Q2C]]

Man, you're cranking these out one after the other, aren't you? It's great to see your enthusiasm!

This is a really good duel map - you've done a great job with it! It flows really nicely and the lighting is just right, I think. It's more Quake 3 than Quake 2 aesthetically and I like the latter more, but that's just my preference on the matter.

The only thing I can suggest is that you add more ambience to the actual indoor area, not just the sound of the wind in the upper levels.

[giftmacher]

Thanks for quick feedback guys

1. Gray texture is a bit problematic, it might look better if I tinker with the lighting some more, it's a bit bright in some areas. The thing is that it started as a castle map so the gray walls are originally brick-walls so I made them higher than 128 units. Because of this I had to use a texture that can mask walls of varied height without it showing too much. Any sort of detailed texture would look terrible. Maybe I can work in some clever trim or cut walls at 128 then add another wall-segment of 32/64 units with a trim texture.

2. Blue/Purple texture, yea it looked way better on the castle theme, that orange rock surrounded by metal, this replacement didn't quite do the job. It would still have to be something that fits the 'space' theme and provide some lighting.

3. Happy that you liked the gameplay flow Marine, I would like to test it myself. More ambience sound coming, the wind is for the 'wind-pipes' Lots of computer/robotic sounds should be added.

[jaydolan]

Hm, it's really hard to mix and match 2 texture sets, and I think you've got about 5 in play here, hehe. Some of the geometry looks pretty darn good. I would find a single texture set that works with your geometry, and apply it to everything. Lighting isn't too bad, either, but it's a bit flat. I would consider having fewer, but stronger, light sources -- and position them near actual light fixture geometry, too. It will look a lot more realistic.

[giftmacher]

Yea I tried to mix in some textures from the '1j2' set, I also experimented with texture light values, I wish someone would write a short guide/set of tips on how to work lighting. Although it is probably harder with custom textures, the 'dedmeat' set looks amazing but when I added lighting it was hard to not wash em out completely, very bright textures from the start. Thanks for the feedback I really appreciate it.

[jaydolan]

Lighting is definitely an art. I have a fair amount of experience with it, but mostly in my engine and with my compiler tool, which calculates light a little differently from the stock Q2 tools. You can actually use my tool (quemap, previously q2wmap) to bake Quake2-compatible BSP files, but it pretty much requires re-lighting your level in Radiant. It's an option, but I don't widely recommend it unless you're already mapping for Quetoo as well and know how the tool works.

I will say that, in general, keeping it simple and going for realism yields the best results. That is: avoid random floating point lights. Only position point lights where you have an actual light source in your map. Need a light somewhere? Then add a light fixture for it so that it looks natural.

Along the same line, keep the number of light sources low, and don't be afraid to have strong lights (300). Let the radiosity algorithm bounce light around the map for you. This is what happens in real life. You generally only have a couple light sources in a room, but the light gets reflected around. The -bounce parameter to the stock Q2 tools control how many times light will be reflected before completely diminishing. The default is generally fine, but you can add bounces for your final compile if you wish.

Lastly, try to avoid surface lighting unless the texture you're applying it to is genuinely a light. Not only will it look odd, but surface lights require the light-emitting face to be sub-divided by the BSP compiler, and they therefore dramatically inflate your compile time. I use surface lighting very sparingly in Quetoo.

You can see how I've done lighting on the Quetoo maps here:
github.com/jdolan/quetoo-data/tree/master/src/default/maps

TRaK's Penumbral Wake (wake.map) is probably the most pedantic / consistently lit map of the bunch.
CardO's Torn Glory (torn.map) is another good example, and a much smaller map to work with.

Hope this helps.

[giftmacher]

Thank you Jaydolan yes very helpful. I removed all the surface lighting and I am now going very slowly but methodically through the map. One 300 light for places where big sky is visible. Added/Removed geometry, removed gimicky windpipes Maybe an update on Sunday.

[Deleted]

feedback: honest..

I've watched you map with ( mappers eyes )..
And each mapper has a taste, color or flavor, dark or light etc etc..

you map quickly with enthusiasm!..
...but I'm going to blow the whistle..
my advice is take your time, slower mapping, because you forget a lot of details..
please do not make it too hard on yourself, keep it simple and fun and learn first how to map..
..I say this especially because your enthusiasm and fun planning to create more maps..


1.Gameplay/flow
map is fast!...good!.

2.texturing
a Trim texture can not just stop??,thats messy..... trim must be neatly finished with depth..


4. Bugs/Issues

I read your old messages, because you had some problems, too many brushes in maps etc etc
I see lamps in the walls, but also on the walls, I notice, and I suspect is that you cut your wall with
(Quark tool brush subtraction)..
that's not good!, why not?.

for example if you use (brush subtraction) for two or more lamps in one wall at different heights,
the wall is cut and is split into smaller pieces soooo the entire wall is broken!,
this is only one broken wall I write about, and your map is not even finished, mapping end result is terrible..
( this is also the answer on your question the too many brushes problem ).

if you want to get better in mapping then this (brush subtraction) style has to change
is only misery, your mapping career will become a night mare...

there are mapping rules one of them is stay on grid 8 or 16, of course there are exceptions possible to jump from grid distance 4,2,1, or use with Func_Wall or Detail flag, but with (brush subtraction) you have broken the mapping and compile rule.
mapping this way and maps grows bigger and bigger and more complex the bsp compile tool does not allow it and just stop!, or give other compile problems or leak holes..

if interested?, I can share tutorial (brush subtraction)..

[giftmacher]

Tweaked the map:

* More detail/better texturing
* Lots of Lighting tweaks
* Improved some rooms
* GA now YA

Link updated.

Margaal:

If I find the inspiration for a masterpiece then maybe I'll spend that amount of time on details. The map should look much better now though

1. Ok that is good, I would like to try it myself, must convince a friend to play Quake 2..

2. Solved some of the texture-issues, added borders to the big (64) trim textures surrounding platforms.

3. ?

4. I never use brush subtraction. For the lights inside walls I make a 16x16 brush, put it in a digger, then add another 16x16 brush (or whatever the size of the light) which I put in a func_wall entity and place it within the digger brush. That way the digger will stop texture-overlaping but ignore the func_wall entity. Maybe there is a problem with this method? I would love an alternative for putting lights within walls. I Only encountered "too many faces/brushes" error with the contest map, never before, but that map's brush work is messy as hell so I'm not really surprised

Thank you.

[Deleted]

Giftmacher

I mean the comments allll good...to improve your mapping...

hmmm
ah 3....yeah....map is bright, no problem , that's just an adjustment a taste.... myself love mysterious dark ...

4....hmmm strange not use brush subtraction...
then you cut your walls horizontal ?? yes?.... is in fact the same effect..

alternative is Always try to cut vertically!!...keep the wall over the entire length good!..
i never use Quark digger... I use only flag detail on crates or in complex maps on stairs.



=========================================

ahhh the Link is updated ok...
okay then we do it here....just wait few minutes,i upload screen shots..

-------------

Delete screenshots.

[giftmacher]

Yea very annoying textures because they dont follow the standars of baseq2. If I replace them with baseq2 everything aligns. I will tinker more tomorrow. Thanks margaal

Btw what is the brush limit for a map? This one is at 1700 now.. if i add more detail I would like to know

[Deleted]

Mar 28, 2015 18:28:34 GMT -5 giftmacher said:

Yea very annoying textures because they dont follow the standars of baseq2. If I replace them with baseq2 everything aligns. I will tinker more tomorrow. Thanks margaal

Btw what is the brush limit for a map? This one is at 1700 now.. if i add more detail I would like to know

Giftmacher
Yeah annoying...sry for that...
1700..brushes...hmmm i think thats max limit..max is 14.000 brush sides.
ahh don,t worries..just small details, maybe use a extra texture and raise floor and lower ceiling....i,m here to help hehe....
i use also Quark Editor...

===============
yesterday I was very curious,what you've done in your map, so i de-compile your map..

Ahhh I see it, ah digger, and a func_wall for each lamp and jumppad..hmmmm not good!, don't use it anymore, makes no sense!.

Today spent some hours with your map, delete all func_wall entities, repair,fix, almost all rooms!.
map is done for 70%...


Screenshotssss:


clean mapping
old


new



clean mapping
old


new



Trimmssssss:

old


new


old2


new2


old


new


old


new


old


new


old ( this is chaos )


new
I could not save this room too difficult to finish all trims neatly
soo I had to choose one texture....keep it simple and fun for yourself...

[giftmacher]

The link didn't get into your post I think. Ok but do you have an explaination as to why not use digger/func_wall, what is the alternative for light-within-walls? Are you cutting all walls into 4 pieces to add small lights? Or do you just don't do light-within walls and just poke them out with 1-2 grid units?

Edit: Now all the screenshots loaded, wow you put in some effort here margaal, I agree on the textures, they need to be aligned better (the blue walls with bronze trim), I like how you did it in the main room with the big jump_pad that looks sweet. I don't agree with the geometry changes however, but that comes down to 'personal preference' and not 'correct mapping' if you ask me! I will work on my .map file and re-work textures and see if I can do more of the texture work in RL/JP room (as you did it). Thank you!

[Deleted]

You can continue where I've stopped, its your map,do what you want!...'ve only been working 6 hours,done a lot,almost repair all trims in your map....repair,cleaning, restored complex brushes against( Max limit ).
you can look, learn....again it's your map!..
oohh and i repair only a couple corridors ( delete all digger/func_wall )..some corridors are unfinished, but closed, no leak holes.

...have new source and bsp for you..zipped now and send PM....give me a minut

I let myself mapping by your textures, I just followed,fix,repair only the texture lines,trims then the details come naturally...have done nothing special, your map, your textures choice...

Yes, light-within-walls i cut walls ( ONLY vertical ) into 4 pieces...( i never cut horizonal )
...and i use only flag detail on small brushes
stairs 8x64 or 8x8 16x16 32x32 brushes in the rooms itself and on the walls...
(NOT in the wall,floor,ceiling otherwise you get a leak hole )..