Null
Gladiator
Posts: 555
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Post by Null on Apr 7, 2015 20:20:56 GMT -5
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Null
Gladiator
Posts: 555
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Post by Null on Apr 7, 2015 21:16:39 GMT -5
Map WIP thread: leray.proboards.com/thread/3648/pans-kitchenPlease post your feedback below. Thank You! omf (my score: 9/10)Wow, this map is awesome. Very professional. Competitive map. Good overall theme, good flow and connectivity. Really well done map, my favorite. Suggestions: Create stronger sub-themes/locations within the map. Maybe change the textures to only be slime/toxic on the bottom level? Make different lighting for exterior and interiors. Or even further; Natural light, exterior base light, interior base light. The theme strongly suggests the use of pipes, maybe integrate them in a way without causing any impact on gameplay? Add objects or height difference to the skyline, to create a sense of depth. |
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jaydolan
Quake 2 Mapping Club 
Posts: 161
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Post by jaydolan on Apr 8, 2015 8:15:17 GMT -5
Reminiscent of Retinal's Mortal Coil (fixed1.bsp), but a bit more open. I freaking love this map.
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spirit
Quake 2 Mapping Club
maps.rcmd.org
Posts: 509
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Post by spirit on Apr 8, 2015 10:51:43 GMT -5
A masterpiece by Pan. Old-school Quake 2 look, with excellent lighting, usage of the textures and great gameplay.
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Post by jitspoe on Apr 11, 2015 1:43:41 GMT -5
I really like how well Pan made use of the stock Quake2 textures in this, combined with some subtle brush detailing to give them a little extra dimension.
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Post by cocerello on Apr 12, 2015 12:05:55 GMT -5
For more general details, info on the story behind this and how this information works and how its made, go to:
leray.proboards.com/post/27943/thread
Items found: One weapon of each type, except BFG, ammo for each one provided. GA, 2x yA, 8x armor shards 5x health packs, 3x large health packs, adrenaline, MH, 7x small health packs Review:Small sized sewers/base compact map with layout and theme from Quake custom DM mapping and brushwork from Quake 2. Brushwork around Id maps in quality and style, nothing special on there, nothing bad either. Textures have been well chosen, used and aligned, each with its own use and role, addding coherence to the map, which is strong. Layout is compact, with a good amount of connectivity, almost completely horizontal, in two flors, where their height makes the layout, more horizontal. Lighting is good, a bit bland maybe, overall around q2dm1 or a bit darker. Combats are very fast paced and horizontal, with not too much variations due to the similarity in type and size of the rooms. As rooms are similar, items placement doesn't matter too much and there is no special places with a concrete weapon in mind when mapping, but given how the map is, it is well placed and there is no issues. Looks to be geared to 4-6 players. Only heard one sound, near the MH. It seems to be a classical custom Quake map, in type of gameplay and layout. Quite simple in its planning and concept, relies on direct fast paced combats on an small map to be fun, no quirks, nothing that stands out, nothing to activate, nothing to search, no variations, no new ideas, no trickjumps involved, no windpads, no ladders. Just run and kill, simple and straightforward, only thing that it has apart from that is some elevators. Feels like an arena due to size. Even though it is small it takes more time than usual to learn it, due to the lack of character and personality in each room. Suggestions:- Add at least one more room, that stands out from the rest. - Give more personality to the rooms, they are very similar to each other. - Make the variations in height in each floor bigger to add more combat situations. - Give more tactical thought to the placement of the MH and adrenaline. - A bit more room to move on some parts wouldn't hurt the theme.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 14:31:02 GMT -5
We begin!.  Hi Kerel!.. mooie map!. - The map gameplay is good! - Texturing choice is ( Yep Old-school Quake 2! ). Suggestions: maybe 75% less green on the floors...more variety maybe floor tiles?... - Brushwork is good!. ( many straight lines - our mapping style are close to each other ).. - Light & shadow ALLL Good!....( my taste ).. - Details... many ( my taste ) huh?!....the ceiling is slightly 16 grid too low in some places.. ( just a feeling ). a small third floor 32 or 64grid difference could take away that 16 grid ceiling feeling.. - High quality map, Yes!, textures are very accurate!, an eye for detail!. The layout looks simple, but it's not, it's very difficult to design!. i love this style 2,4, CTRL grid mapping.. Oke now we go to the screenshots...the eye details stuff!. just a few little things..  screenies... DeleteDone!.. a well-deserved second place!. |
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Pan
Light Guard
panjoo.tastyspleen.net
Posts: 33
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Post by Pan on Apr 19, 2015 14:29:15 GMT -5
Thanks all:) - Hehe, no I did not forget. Why should we always have to put trims on both sides of each and every step, I only wanted to trim the outer sides of the staircases, so side textures didn't feel cut off. (By the way man, those bright green High Res textures in your q2 makes it look horrible, the original textures fit the map better...) * Lower ceilings & suggestions: - In some places (like underneath the Mega plateau) I didn't want to create a lot of tiny extra brushsplits so I left the trim textures sticking out. And some ceilings are indeed lower than the usual 128units, I did this on purpose so the rocketsplash does more damage if you shoot from below. This makes it easier to hit the opponent on the second floor. As for the suggestions to remove some of the high bars/beams, I think it looks more original and playful the way it is, two straight beams is so common in most maps. I agree with your first suggestion to give a bit more space around the 2 floor lights, but them walllights stick out for a reason, to make certain jumps. (see image) The rest are all deliberate choices. You can't always rebuild a whole part of the map just because one texture gets cut off or doesn't fit on all sides. Sometimes you have to compromise, but I know what you mean:). I feel the same about details in maps and I have always had a thing for texture alignment, especially on curves. To me it's just one of the signs of dedication and care, making sure everything is in place even though not many people are going to notice, only the few nitpickers who can appreciate that sort of thing. ------------------------- - It was designed purely with 1v1 play in mind and duel maps really don't need all kinds of gimmicks to become interesting. Anyway there are a few trickjumps but you need some jump experience to find and do them: => couple of shortcuts to YA using the walllights and a jump to get across. -> There's also hard jump straight to MH using a doublejump from the 2nd step down (one short pre-jump followed by a quick doublejump before you touch the side)  * "Even though it is small it takes more time than usual to learn it, due to the lack of character and personality in each room."- It's just small q2 duel map, not a singleplayer level that you can get lost in. If you make each "room" have its own personality it will just look like a mixed bag. Wiz also suggested using different textures on the "interior" parts, but with a map this size there's hardly any room to make distinctive areas without making things look out of place. So in this case I totally disagree. * "As rooms are similar, items placement doesn't matter too much and there is no special places with a concrete weapon in mind."- Yes it may look like that but make no mistake how much it matters in duel maps and how much time was actually spent on finetuning the placement with real play testing. There are so many things to consider that won't even be noticed without playing against an experienced human player: => which weapons are needed and available for the "down player" who's out of control, different routes to take and to time, the spreading of armors, the "weight" or pull factor of the Mega (in its current spot there are 4 directions to get it from), creating enough angles and opportunities for rocket splashdamage and rail peek-shots, enough cover, etc. etc. |
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Post by cocerello on Apr 30, 2015 14:04:51 GMT -5
Hmmmm ... Looks like you haven't read everything i wrote above, Pan, because i see some misunderstandings here. Looks like you haven't read the linked post that came with each review/suggestions list i made for each map, which has some paragraphs wrote on purpose to avoid these misunderstandings. That's to be expected, and probably half the people didn't read that either, as that part is in another thread but as its shared of each review, i wanted to keep it at a single place. Not that its a problem, as misunderstandings makes people talk, and also your explanations are interesting to read. If after reading that if you are in the mood, you still think you made no misunderstandings there, i have no problem in explaining, as i don't feel right when people get a wrong impression out of me, no matter if it is positive or negative, but to summarize it, you got out of my phrases more meaning than they really have. (By the way man, those bright green High Res textures in your q2 makes it look horrible, the original textures fit the map better...) Have to agree with that. They don't fit the rest of Id textures. On their own or with a more cartoonish texture set could work, but as ID's replacement, not. Thanks to you for answering. You deserve some points for that. - It was designed purely with 1v1 play in mind and duel maps really don't need all kinds of gimmicks to become interesting. Anyway there are a few trickjumps but you need some jump experience to find and do them: => couple of shortcuts to YA using the walllights and a jump to get across. -> There's also hard jump straight to MH using a doublejump from the 2nd step down (one short pre-jump followed by a quick doublejump before you touch the side) Never said the map needed them. What i said back there is that its lack provides an straightforward type of gameplay. On the other hand, its interesting and a good lesson about the details of the map. * "Even though it is small it takes more time than usual to learn it, due to the lack of character and personality in each room."- It's just small q2 duel map, not a singleplayer level that you can get lost in. If you make each "room" have its own personality it will just look like a mixed bag. Wiz also suggested using different textures on the "interior" parts, but with a map this size there's hardly any room to make distinctive areas without making things look out of place. So in this case I totally disagree. But it is a fact that i got lost for a minute when i played it and took me more than usual to understand it, more than in two thirds of the maps in the contest. Given the size of the map, that stands out, thats why i mentioned it. It is not important as it isn't a very big DM map, but i wanted to mention it nonetheless. About your comment on personality, you are going there for an extreme solution, and there is an infinite number of solutions between what you did and that extreme you mention. If you read the suggestions part i wrote, which is the part that matters, you'll see that i mention to give MORE personality to the rooms. How much, it's up to you. I agree with you on the idea about using different textures being no good, so maybe using an extra one for details like the red eagle or a trim could work for that. * "As rooms are similar, items placement doesn't matter too much and there is no special places with a concrete weapon in mind."- Yes it may look like that but make no mistake how much it matters in duel maps and how much time was actually spent on finetuning the placement with real play testing. There are so many things to consider that won't even be noticed without playing against an experienced human player: => which weapons are needed and available for the "down player" who's out of control, different routes to take and to time, the spreading of armors, the "weight" or pull factor of the Mega (in its current spot there are 4 directions to get it from), creating enough angles and opportunities for rocket splashdamage and rail peek-shots, enough cover, etc. etc. Replace ''as rooms are similar, items placement doesn't matter too much'' with ''as rooms are more similar than usual, item placement doesn't matter as much as in other maps'' and you'll get what i wanted to say. Again, its an interesting read. Have to agree at the first part of the second paragraph. you should add more to it and make a guide for mapping, or at least to explain the details of the map. I would be interested in reading that. EDIT: deleted all the parts about mapping talk to avoid even more misunderstandings. |
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jaydolan
Quake 2 Mapping Club
Posts: 161
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Post by jaydolan on May 4, 2015 6:58:05 GMT -5
What an odd reply. cocerello, since, by your own admission, you're not a "dedicated" or duel player, I'm not sure why you feel so compelled to critique this map, or why you insist that Pan concedes all of your feedback. In my opinion, based on 17+ years of being a dedicated Quake2 player and hacker, duel players will appreciate all of the nuances Pan included in this map. Are you not pleased with how this map scored or something? I guess my point is that: you gave your feedback, Pan accepted much of it but pointed out a few clarifications. That should basically be the end of the critique. It's impolite, in my opinion, to carry on about the feedback, or not let the map author have the last word.
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Post by cocerello on May 4, 2015 9:07:35 GMT -5
What an odd reply. cocerello, since, by your own admission, you're not a "dedicated" or duel player, I'm not sure why you feel so compelled to critique this map, or why you insist that Pan concedes all of your feedback. In my opinion, based on 17+ years of being a dedicated Quake2 player and hacker, duel players will appreciate all of the nuances Pan included in this map. Are you not pleased with how this map scored or something? I guess my point is that: you gave your feedback, Pan accepted much of it but pointed out a few clarifications. That should basically be the end of the critique. It's impolite, in my opinion, to carry on about the feedback, or not let the map author have the last word. Jaydolan, you got it wrong. And you too, Spirit. I don't want for Pan to concede a single thing, EVER, i just wanted to clarify some points that i think that he misunderstood about my feedback and to have a talk about mapping. For me its more impolite to let someone believe something that i haven't wrote, its like lying to him. About conceding things, in fact, if i had to choose, i would prefer if he were to be AGAINST every single thing i said, as long as he explained the reasons, to have a good mapping talk with everyone. But i can understand you getting that feeling out of my words, as i have mixed the clarifications of the misunderstanding with general mapping talking, and the later can be confused with criticisms towards the map. But given the number of problems it has given, i'll edit the post and delete the mapping talk parts, and case closed. |
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jaydolan
Quake 2 Mapping Club
Posts: 161
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Post by jaydolan on May 4, 2015 22:24:06 GMT -5
Okay. Fair enough. Language barrier. Cheers, man.
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Pan
Light Guard
panjoo.tastyspleen.net
Posts: 33
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Post by Pan on May 7, 2015 8:32:00 GMT -5
Looks like you haven't read everything i wrote above, Pan, because i see some misunderstandings here. Looks like you haven't read the linked post that came with each review/suggestions list i made for each map, which has some paragraphs wrote on purpose to avoid these misunderstandings. Cocerello, I have checked several times before and I just checked again but I couldn't find any extra paragraphs in which you elaborated on what you wrote and how you wrote it in this thread (?). That link at the top of your 1st post here only points to the thread with all the maps that entered. I had even checked your profile to see the posts you made over the last weeks and I didn't find any text that would explain your feedback, so from my point of view there wasn't a whole lot to misunderstand. Which by the way is no problem and I do appreciate your effort. On that note, I've been taking a closer look at your maps and been thinking of writing up some gameplay suggestions whenever I'm in the right frame of mind. |
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Post by cocerello on May 8, 2015 13:32:50 GMT -5
Looks like you haven't read everything i wrote above, Pan, because i see some misunderstandings here. Looks like you haven't read the linked post that came with each review/suggestions list i made for each map, which has some paragraphs wrote on purpose to avoid these misunderstandings. Cocerello, I have checked several times before and I just checked again but I couldn't find any extra paragraphs in which you elaborated on what you wrote and how you wrote it in this thread (?). That link at the top of your 1st post here only points to the thread with all the maps that entered. I had even checked your profile to see the posts you made over the last weeks and I didn't find any text that would explain your feedback, so from my point of view there wasn't a whole lot to misunderstand. Which by the way is no problem and I do appreciate your effort. Quite an effort you did there. Don't worry, it isn't that big and most of it i already pointed out in my last post, so its no big issue. Yes, its on that thread you are talking about. There is two posts there written by me. Those are the ones, mainly the first, as its the one i wrote before the reviews and the one being linked, but the second talks about that a bit too. On that note, I've been taking a closer look at your maps and been thinking of writing up some gameplay suggestions whenever I'm in the right frame of mind. Thank you. I'll be waiting eagerly for that! I don't mind waiting the time you need to do that, so take your time. |
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Post by sP1Sp0pD on May 25, 2015 10:25:02 GMT -5
Anyway there are a few trickjumps but you need some jump experience to find and do them: => couple of shortcuts to YA using the walllights and a jump to get across. -> There's also hard jump straight to MH using a doublejump from the 2nd step down (one short pre-jump followed by a quick doublejump before you touch the side) Just got a chance (I'm quite new to Quake 2 Café) to try this map of yours Pan, feels very nice and fluid! I especially enjoyed that DJ to the MH: awesome feature, although I find your recommended way (with a pre-jump) actually harder to master than direct DJ+CJ from the staircase itself (it is wide/long enough to gain initial speed and enough of angle to move the mouse to land exactly at the MH). Did you calculate those distances deliberately (with the shortcut in mind), or just accidentally discovered those tricks during test/play runs? On a larger scale, does anyone know of a summary of common distances (with optional elevation compensations) published somewhere for those who want to include a tricky (but certainly doable) jump in their map and doesn't want to spend a lot of time to debug it? |
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